{"metadata":{"bundle_type":"episode_pack","bundle_version":"prompt24_v1","workspace_slug":"orbital","episode_id":"23fc8aa4-9ad1-4035-be55-1e2e46b7cbb3","exported_at":"2026-08-31T20:57:08.643105Z"},"summary":{"content_asset_count":21,"transcript_segment_count":200,"asset_types":{"content_calendar_item":3,"newsletter_summary":1,"social_post":3,"hook":3,"quote_card":4,"clip_candidate":4,"episode_theme":3},"ranked_theme_ids":[],"theme_snapshot_ids":[]},"episode":{"id":"23fc8aa4-9ad1-4035-be55-1e2e46b7cbb3","source_id":"cdca8d64-1d38-4a3a-bb68-6544ebb27d8b","source_slug":"yt-l67J__PtTOE-d9654309","transcript_document_id":"a9b18ab4-6121-4e8c-80d9-c2f948f3d4e3","raw_asset_id":"81e138b3-a2a0-4c2e-b3be-327922fef4de","title":"Виїхали VS залишились – найбільша етична дилема? | УП Jam","description":"УП JAM — серія розмов про культуру, у якій ми з гостями дискутуємо про помітні, складні та суперечливі події культурного життя України. У четвертому випуску ми поговорили про розділену культурну спільноту — тих, хто виїхав, і тих, хто залишився. Разом із нашими гостями розібралися: чи варто інституціям працювати з людьми, які виїхали за кордон, і як представниці культурних організацій обговорювали це питання всередині команд та формували нові правила перевірки бекграунду; яка реальність вимушеної міграції стоїть за цими рішеннями; звідки в суспільстві запит на справедливість; і чи можна зберегти для тих, хто виїхав, місце на повернення — не фізичне, а можливість знову долучитися до суспільної розмови й культурного діалогу. Ліза Корнейчук, головна редакторка УП Культура Альона Каравай, кураторка та співзасновниця галереї «Асортиментна кімната» в Івано-Франківську Ася Цісар, кураторка Jam Factory Art Center у Львові Це відео створено в партнерстві з Jam Factory Art Center у межах спец","external_url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l67J__PtTOE","status":"published","published_at":"2026-08-29T13:00:39Z","transcript_segment_count":200,"content_asset_count":21,"details_json":{"file_name":null,"published_at":"2026-08-29T13:00:39+00:00","transcript_format":"youtube_captions"},"latest_transcript_segments":[{"id":"dde68659-98e2-4774-a268-ca9885e99e5a","segment_index":0,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"Yes, in fact, the law that"},{"id":"4e7c06e9-3226-478c-8847-dcd1eb094f9b","segment_index":1,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"these people are breaking does not exist. They are violating their"},{"id":"4bd187ba-afb6-4520-ae09-92d38112842e","segment_index":2,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"obligation to the Ministry of Culture. This is not the"},{"id":"43b4397d-0d7a-42f7-8d04-9eeca8fc8c5d","segment_index":3,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"law. It's just that you promised something and didn't"},{"id":"808ef4a3-56ff-4415-bbf5-b7e538941e4b","segment_index":4,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"deliver. My focus is"},{"id":"d41d5c1f-507a-4f56-a76b-9df7f02a4819","segment_index":5,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"on those who remain"},{"id":"26ecf659-f907-4f0a-87cb-29f69f302700","segment_index":6,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"inside Ukraine. 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Разом із нашими гостями розібралися: чи варто інституціям працювати з людьми, які виїхали за кордон, і як представниці культурних організацій обговорювали це питання всередині команд та формували нові правила перевірки бекграунду; яка реальність вимушеної міграції стоїть за цими рішеннями; звідки в суспільстві запит на справедливість; і чи можна зберегти для тих, хто виїхав, місце на повернення — не фізичне, а можливість знову долучитися до суспільної розмови й культурного діалогу.\n\nЛіза Корнейчук, головна редакторка УП Культура\nАльона Каравай, кураторка та співзасновниця галереї «Асортиментна кімната» в Івано-Франківську\nАся Цісар, кураторка Jam Factory Art Center у Львові\n\nЦе відео створено в партнерстві з Jam Factory Art Center у межах спец","topic_seeds":["Those Events"],"caption_kind":"asr_auto","channel_name":"Українська правда","published_at":"2026-08-29T13:00:39Z","source_universe":{"cadence":"weekly","warnings":[],"feed_urls":[],"source_type":"youtube_video","sitemap_urls":[],"allowed_paths":[],"blocked_paths":[],"crawl_posture":"manual_approval","domain_family":"youtube.com","freshness_sla":"weekly","source_family":"video_media","trust_posture":"community","authority_tier":"tier_d","branch_relevance":[],"historical_yield":{},"rejection_history":[],"source_family_raw":"video_media","audience_relevance":[],"contamination_history":[],"robots_unavailable_policy":"fail_closed"},"transcript_text":"Yes, in fact, the law that\nthese people are breaking does not exist.  They are violating their\nobligation to the Ministry of Culture.  This is not the\nlaw.  It's just that you promised something and didn't\ndeliver.  My focus is\non those who remain\ninside Ukraine.  There is neither an authority\nresponsible for this return nor a\nlegal mechanism to hold them\naccountable.  Such quarrels only\nmake it more difficult to understand how to return.\nWhat exactly are we talking about?  About the fact that we\ndon't work with those who left then.  Who is\nthis?  Women or men?  And if we\nall die here in Kyiv, who\nwill tell the stories of our\nart?  Those people who left.\nHello everyone.  This is OP Jam, a place where we\ntalk about issues and problems in\nUkrainian culture.  And today's\nepisode is dedicated to a rather annoying\ntopic.  We will talk about the divided\ncultural community of those who left and\nthose who stayed.  And I want to introduce\nthe guests for today's episode.  This is Alena\nKaravay, curator and co-founder of the\nAssortment Room gallery in\nIvano-Frankivsk, and Asya Tsisar, curator of the\nJM Factory art center in Lviv.  And I am Liza\nKorniychuk, editor-in-chief of UP\nKultura.  I'll immediately make a disclaimer that\nwe are meeting today in such a\npurely female company without men.\nUnfortunately, all the male guests we\ninvited declined to participate.  And I\nthink it just confirms that this\ntopic is quite difficult to talk about and\nquite difficult to\ndiscuss publicly, but it's still important for us\nto discuss the tensions that\narise around this division of the\ncultural community.  Therefore,\nwe will discuss this composition with the\ndisclaimer that we are all unrestricted in our\ntravel and are free and not subject to\nmilitary service.  Asya, I want to\nstart with the topic that probably launched\nand, well, greatly increased the attention\nto this conversation.  This is a recent exhibition by\nGM Factory Center, which,\nunfortunately, attracted attention not because of the\ntheme of the exhibition, which is independent\nself-organized cultural spaces, but\nbecause of the curatorial staff.  in a fairly\nlarge curatorial group.  Among them\nwas a male curator who left, uh,\nUkraine in 2022 with permission from, uh,\nthe Ministry of Culture and never returned, thereby violating\nthe law.  So this fact became quite\nloud and the\nsubject of heated discussion, but it\nalso revealed in principle the\nsocial inequality that worries the\nUkrainian community.\nincluding the cultural community itself.  I would like to\nask you to comment on this\nepisode and how you, as an institution,\nresolved this issue for yourself and whether you\nperhaps took with you some, well, uh,\nlet's say, ethical reservations, yes, that\nyou continue to work with after this\nepisode.\nI'm not sure that all the people who\nwill be watching this podcast, uh, really\ncared about what was going on.  Well, on\nFacebook and in general, the discussion\naround the exhibition and this\nsituation.  Well, and on the but we, as\nJМ Factory, dedicated a whole big public conversation, an\nopen interview, uh, to\nanswering these questions.  But\njust to give some context, uh,\nthis exhibition happened through a competition.  And when\nwe were choosing the project, we knew that Anton and\nhis co-curator, uh, Anastasia,\nwere abroad.  We did not know\nthe circumstances of Anton's departure.  And at that time,\nit was quite organic for us,\nuh, a combination of curators who have their own\nindependent Artist Tran Space and\nwork in Ukraine, curators who\nworked in Ukraine and\nnow work abroad.  That is, it\nseemed to us that in\nthis way we would be able to maintain a certain\nequality of experiences.  After all, these projects, those\nartist-run spaces that the\nexhibition presents, also quite\nreflect the situation in modern\nUkrainian culture.  There are spaces\nthat have ceased to exist, people who\nhave left, spaces that exist in exile,\nspaces that half-exist.  Some\nof the founders of the vast expanse\nserve, some live abroad, and so on\nand so forth.  This was, in our\nopinion, a rather organic m and e ethical e\nethical way of presenting various\nexperiences, e, through which\nindependent Ukrainian culture passes.  But at a\ncertain point,\nthe curators invited her to one of the\nspaces, the interior space.  And so it\nhappened that we found out the circumstances of\nAnton's departure.  And for us, it was a\nbig, big ethical dilemma, because in\nreality,\nif we wanted to\nconsciously raise this topic, we would have chosen a\ndifferent format.  We would try to be more\necological.  We would try, well, I\nmean I'm now talking in a\nconditional way, what would happen if, but\nif we had consciously not put ourselves in\nsuch a situation.  But the situation we\nfound ourselves in actually seems very\ninteresting and important to me, because in\nfact we had to either deny the\nright of a person who went abroad to make\nthis exhibition and accordingly close the\nexhibition, because as a curator he has the\ncopyright to his idea.  We\ncannot implement this idea without him.  And\nthus, we would have to\ncancel the exhibition accordingly and cancel the\nparticipation of almost 200 other people, artists, and\nspaces who were involved in it.  We\ndecided that if you have a situation like this hanging in the balance\n, we decided that we didn't want to\nsacrifice the project.\nWe also probably don't want\nto appear as an institution that is afraid of\npublic condemnation, that sweeps problems\nunder the carpet.  That is, when the curators\ninvited the interior space, uh, one\nof the founders of the interior space,\nDenis, is a military man.  And\nthe condition of his participation in this exhibition was that\nat every mention of the interior space, the\ncurators must voice and\npublish a statement that actually\nstates his disagreement with being\npart of this exhibition precisely because of the\nreason why one of the curators left.\nDenis could have written anything in this statement\n, and we could have radically\ndisagreed with it.  He is, but he raised an\nissue that we also consider important.\nWe consider it unspoken, we\nconsider it systematic\nand generally a stalemate for modern\nUkrainian culture.  Because instead of\ntalking about it and making it\nvisible and looking for some kind of solution, in\nmost cases the decision is made to\nsimply keep this situation quiet.  We\nmade a conscious choice to post this\nstatement.  And just to conclude what\nI'm saying, this exhibition was actually not\nunder-examined.\nAnd there were five or\nsix great critical texts published about this exhibition,\nwhich talked about the problems of independent\nculture, including the Ukrainian Cultural Institute\nin particular, and all of these\ntexts mentioned Denis's statement and\nmentioned this disagreement and mentioned this\ngap.  But in fact, the great public\noutcry and what we call the\nFacebook backlash arose precisely because of the way, the very\nspecific way, in which the author of\nthe text formulated the problem.\nThis is a column on a public forum\nby the author under the name Joshpszyk for\ncontext.  I'm going to interrupt you a little here, because it\nseems to me to be an interesting situation that\nin your case it would have\nworked and attracted a lot of attention,\nbut in reality it's, well, quite, well, we\nknow about, we know\nabout many episodes of different\nartists there or cultural figures who\nare not in Ukraine.  And this\nsocial weight works very differently\n, yes, it works for some.\nThey can do a project in Ukraine and\nremain unnoticed by this\nmoral sediment and even be\nrecognized and celebrated, relatively\nspeaking, uh, uh, in the community.  And for some,\nlike Anton in this case, it\nworked, well, in this way.  I would\nlike to talk about your\nproject, Alyona.  Scattered, sown - this is a project\nthat the assortment room has been doing for more than\none time, as I understand it, an iteration of\nprecisely the same cooperation between the cultural\ncommunity that remains in Ukraine and\nthose who left.  And it seems to me that you were\none of the first to\nnotice, well, notice this budding\nsplit or tension and start working with it\ncritically.  Actually, I would like to ask\nyou to tell me more about\nwhat this project is and what its goal is.\nSo, what does he generally strive for, yes, what is the\nultimate, perhaps, goal of this\nproject, as you see it.\nYes, Russia is not seeded, that's what\nthis program is called.  We started thinking about her, and\nI in particular started thinking about her in the year 23.\nWe launched it in 2024.  And then we\nturned to various partners, because in order to\nlaunch this program\ntogether with other institutions.  And\nwe received\na response from some partners that this was too, I wouldn't say\ndangerous, too critical a topic.   A\ntopic where you can run into both\ncritical discussions and what Asya and\nwe all call [ __ ].  And some\npartners postponed their participation in\nthis project, although they later\njoined after we did the\nfirst iteration.  And I'm telling you this because it took us\nabout 10 months, almost a year, to be\nin negotiations, to\ntalk about what's possible, what's\nimpossible, what our position might be\nin this program.  And Russian Sown is a\nspace for\nsuch an easily facilitated dialogue between\nartists with very different\nexperiences during the war, which become even\nmore different over time.  That is, the experience of\nleaving and staying in Ukraine is one of\nthese experiences.  But, for example, even\nwithin Ukraine, our experiences\nvary greatly.  And the experience of living in Kyiv\nnow is very different from the experience of\nliving in any other city in\nUkraine, even one close to the\nfront line.  And actually, we were talking\nabout these gaps.  We have\ndifferent experiences.  They divide us very organically\n.  Some of us were once\npart of shared communities.  Are they\nstill our communities?  Can we\nfind experience there?  or do we refocus on\nother communities.  That is, for us and for me,\nall the questions were open questions in\nthis program that we asked.  And that's how it\nis.  What was important was the tone of\nthe conversation in this program.  And it was\nfundamental to me that we not move on to\npersonalities, that we still find a\nway to speak with minimal human\nrespect for each other, but at the same time\nabsolutely accept all the differences that\nmay exist between people, all the paradoxes,\nand so on.  And this program, from the very\nbeginning, consisted more of non-public\nconversations between the participants of this\nprogram.  And gradually, in three circles, we\nstarted going out into some\npublic areas.  Partly, these were pair\nart shows, where people talked about their\npractice.  Partly, these were\nworks of art created in some tandems or\ntrios of these people.  One of the results\nwas the book Scattered, Sown with the SC of the\nparticipants.  Mostly these are\nartists who do not\nwork with text as their main\ntool at all.  They work with\nvisual images.  There are no illustrations in this book\n, only words, because\nthis program was about finding language.  And these\ntexts are also combined in tandems or\ntridems.  And I often say about this book\nthat it's not a pleasant read, but it's an\nimportant read.  Sometimes, when we give a\nbook, we say: \"We wish you a\npleasant reading. I lost my library.\"\nWhen this book is sent, she says,\n\"This may not be a pleasant read,\nbut perhaps it is necessary.\"  I read this\nbook and I didn't find it a\npleasant read either.  I actually felt a\nlot of tension in both sides.\nThat is, those who stayed and I write from\nthis position, it seems to me, have\nmany unspoken or insufficiently\nspoken grievances, and perhaps resentment, but\nthose who left also obviously feel\nthemselves in a position where they have to\njustify themselves on the one hand, and on the\nother hand, they have their own challenges.  And these\nchallenges are also existential.  And these\nchallenges are also difficult for any\nindividual.  how difficult it is to lose your home and\nlose your community and feel like a\nstranger or different in this new\nenvironment.  And I liked that in the\npreface to this collection you said that\nnot everyone for whom I made the program\nneeds it.  Well, I'm actually curious\nwhether\nthis tension, this conflict,\nwas still present even in\nthis safe space.  And I'll\ncontextualize this question a little, because what\nsurprised me in the discussion of the Gref\nFactory case was how quickly and easily a\ncertain dehumanization of, let's say\n, Anton, who left, and the deprivation of\nhis rights as a Ukrainian\ncitizen, was involved.  Yes, he broke the law and\nthis issue needs to be addressed at\nthis level.  But on the other hand, this does not\ndeprive him of his rights or\nbelonging there, yes, to Ukraine.  And it\nseemed to me that sometimes, even in this\nconversation, in this discussion of Srači, I\nsaw an attempt, as it were, to undermine his\nability to be, even in this\nsymbolic space, one in\ncommon.  And this, of course, is not about Anton,\nit's about the opportunity to be in\nthis shared space in general.  with people who\nare physically no longer in Ukraine and it is\nunknown whether they will ever return.  Yes, there are a lot of\ntensions here.  And\nreturning to my question,\nthat is, not everyone needed it,\ncan you somehow explain what this\nmeant in practice in this program?\nAnd there were tensions in the program, there were a lot of them\n.  I remember difficult conversations.  I\nremember when we had Zoom, especially in the first\nround, we would meet there for an hour and\na half or two, there was Zoom,\nwhere the four of us would talk and the conversation would go on.\nAnd it's important to say that in the first two\nrounds, uh, I was in the program with two other\ncurators and I wouldn't have started without them.  This is\nYaroslav Tymsky, a Ukrainian artist,\nindependent curator, and Serhiy Klymko, a\ncurator and one of the key people in the\nKyiv misery.  And they actually helped me have this conversation, with their\ndifferent experiences and their different\nstyles of conversation\n.  For example,\nYaroslav has a very attentive\nconversational style.  He could carefully stop\nthe conversation when it got too far,\nwell, I won't say too far, when people were\nalready moving on to personalities.  And Serhiy\nwas the person who could, on the contrary,\nspeed up the pace of work a little,\nintroduce some irony, and so on.  That is,\nI wouldn't have been able to do this without them.  We\ndid it together.  But going back to this one\nconversation that I remember, during\nthis conversation it so happened that\nYaroslav and I ended up physically together.  We were in\nKyiv, we went on this zoom together.  This\nconversation never ended.  He had with\nhim, as Yaroslav often did, a bottle of\nTranscarpathian cognac, half a bottle.  And we\njust, I couldn't bear this conversation\nuntil we were a little bit drunk on it in the\nprocess.  And it wasn't because people\nwere insulting each other, but because\nthey were very honest about their\nexperiences, about where they are now\n, what they are doing now.  And\ntogether, these experiences, when they\nwere spoken, it was very difficult to\nendure, understanding that this was\nhappening at the\nsame time.\nHere we are together at the same time.  Yes, it\nseems to me that there is this moment here that\neveryone, entering this conversation, wants\nmore empathy for themselves and is unable to give\nit in return.  That is, each of us\nspeaks from this position as if lost,\nour own, lost, but less\nfocused on what we can give.\nWell, that was my impression, uh, in general,\nthinking about it.  But I would like to\ntake us a little bit into a more general\nsituation.  Basically, since 22, a lot of\npeople have left and the\ncultural landscape has changed a lot.  And I would\nlike to know your observations\nin general about how the community has changed and\nhow you feel about this impact.  Do\nyou feel this as, I don't know,\ndevastation or isolation, maybe, or maybe\nyou don't have as dramatic a view as I do, and a\npessimistic one.  Well, overall, how do\nyou see it?\nAre you optimistic or not?  If you are\noptimistic, you can start.\nNo, I'm just saying that what you\nsaid about Russia at the ZSI, it\nseems to me that first of all, it's a fantastic\nproject.  I really love him with all my heart\n.  As\ndifficult as these conversations were, it\nseems to me that it is also extremely\nimportant here that, well, this is a project that\npeople on both sides enter into consciously.\nThat is, they consciously go into this conversation and\neven when it is a conscious decision, this\nconversation is difficult and there, but it is some kind of\nconscious risk.  I also realize\nthat\nthere is, for example, the situation that happened at the\nGM Factory.  Perhaps the only thing I would\nlike to change is that I don't regret what happened in any way\n.  It seems to me that no matter how\ntoxic this\nconversation was, it showed me and our\nteam there and it is generally very\nsymptomatic of the uh, cultural field as a\nwhole.  I'm sure there are people who\ndon't need this conversation, for whom it's\ntwo or three, two or three times more\ntraumatic.  And because\nthey found themselves in a situation\nwhere they had to comment on it, and because of\ntheir personal experience of military\nservice or any experience\nrelated to this war, it was\ntraumatic.  That's what I would really like to\nchange.  It seems to me that this is actually,\nagain, a conversation about a mediated\nconversation.  That is, if we agree\nthat there are some people who want this\nconversation, this conversation should also have its own\nrules.\nTo the question of how, uh, the cultural community has changed\n, uh, well, it's important for me\nto say here that these changes are still in process, they're\nnot over yet, they're very dynamic.\nAnd in my experience, these changes, they were like\nemotional seesaws.  That is, there was\ndevastation, very few people left\naround, with whom or with what to work.\nThen there is some hope again.  At some\npoint, we started working more with\nteenagers, created a school of contemporary\nart, and looked at how a\nnew community was emerging, which was also starting an\nartistic process within itself.  Then\nagain there is some devastation.  And now,\non this emotional swing, I'm at a very\npessimistic point and I'm expecting some\nnew wave of departures, which will perhaps be,\nwell, maybe for a while, maybe it can be\ncompared to the 22nd.  Maybe it will be a little bit the\nsame.  But that's actually true, so it\nhas changed a lot, but it continues\nto change.  in this process.\nBut I also look at it in such a pessimistic way\n.  And going out is one\nproblem, but another for me is\nthis isolation.  For example, you said about the\nyounger generation of teenagers, right?  There are, well,\nthere are some, I already see some new\n20-year-olds who have never been\nabroad, for example, have never had\nthis experience of international interaction of\nguys, for example, uh, male\nartists.\nWell, I think, maybe, yes, of course, this\nwill now sound like a conversation about\ncertain privileges of artistic life there, but\ncompared to life in Ukraine in general.\nBut mobility is one of the big\ncomponents of general artistic\npractice today.  To travel, to see, to\ncommunicate and to exchange.  This is quite\nimportant when you do it\nprofessionally.  So I see that in this\nsense, a whole body of experiences there is\ninaccessible to the new generation or\npractically inaccessible, at least not\nunevenly distributed very much.  And\nthis also affects where we are\nmoving together.\nBut I would also like to return to,\nagain, the GM Factory case and to the\nfact that it is obvious now that this\ndiscussion, if it were to reveal this tension,\nperhaps a new code of ethics would emerge in\ninstitutions, such as whether to work or not to\nwork with those\ncultural professionals who are abroad,\nor who are there, I don't know, background\nchecks should now be done on you, and so on.\nThat is, have you, as representatives of the\ninstitution, discussed in your teams\nwhat safeguards or rules there might be here,\nor perhaps some new, let's say\n, institutional statutes,\nupdates to these statutes regarding cooperation\nwith\npeople who are not in Ukraine?\nOf course, in a scattered seeded area, it's, well, a\ncompletely different situation.  But when it\ncomes to, for example, curating an\nexhibition, I think many people have\na question about how a person can spatially\ncreate a spatial work, and an exhibition\nis a large spatial work, without\nbeing in the place and without seeing\nthis space.  Well, and so on.\nThe question is for you, as representatives of\nthe institution, how do you discuss and normalize this issue for yourself\nin the future?\nWell, if we talk about us, about the\nassortment room, we didn't have it in our\nrules that we wouldn't collaborate there with\nany group of Ukrainian artists.  And\ncurrently this is not in the rules.\nHowever, each situation, well, should be\nconsidered very individually.  So this is\njust one, well, this is just\none important aspect.  And besides this aspect,\nfor example, what is important to me is the\nartistic contribution of this person, what the person\nis doing now, and any political\nstatements they make, and so on.  So,\ncurrently we have such an ethical code,\nwhich I can say is that we don't\nwork with [ __ ], but each time\nwe define these [ __ ] differently,\nbecause for me, for us, for\nus, for example,\na person's misogynistic statements are a stop to cooperation.  Wherever\nthis person is and whatever\nbackground they have, this is a\nstop.  The mere fact of being\nabroad is not an offense.  And we are\nconsidering, as you also say, whether it makes\nsense spatially now, or whether it doesn't make sense\nspatially.  On the other hand, during\nCovid there were also experiences, many experiences of\nremote work.  They existed, we\nknow about them.  As far as I know, there\nare also experiences today that men\nwho are in Ukraine cannot\ntravel abroad.  They also do\nsome things abroad, also remotely.  And\nthis is also very important.  Therefore, each case\nmust be considered comprehensively and seen\nwhether it is currently working comprehensively, whether this\ncontribution is working.  And on top of that, there are\nadditional things.  But if the question is\nwhether we will check the documents,\nno, we will not check the documents.  Well,\nwe, that is, it is not our function.\nWell,\ncheck the documents.\nIt's also generally a question of what we have\n.  Yes, we are talking in an ethical\ndimension now.  That is, there is some kind of social,\nyes, some kind of agreement or arrangement or\nsome kind of mainstream,\nformulated in a mainstream way, but there is a kind of\nstate dimension to this.  That is, these permits\nare issued by the Ministry of Culture and, accordingly,\nthe law is violated.  And what are the mechanisms for\nregulating this by institutions,\ninstitutions that issue permits, and what are their\nlevers of influence on this?  This question is\nopen, as I understand it.  Correct me, there is\ncurrently no mechanism to somehow\ninfluence the return of, for example,\nthis person.  Yes, actually, it's just because\nwe got too deep into this topic\nwhen we were discussing it on Jim.  Yes,\nin reality, the law that these\npeople are breaking does not exist.  They are violating their\nobligation\nto the Ministry of Culture.  This is not the law.\nIt's just that you promised something and didn't deliver.\nThere is neither an authority responsible for this\nreturn nor a legal mechanism\nto hold them accountable.  And\nif it\njust seems to me that\nwe're just mixing up a lot of\nthings at the same time here, because\nwe need to,\nif it seems to me that in this discussion we\nneed to differentiate a little bit about what\nexactly we're talking about.  about the fact that we don't\nwork with those who left then.  Who is\nthis?  Women or men?  When did they\nleave?  If they left on February 23,\n2022, did they do something bad or\ngood and still haven't returned?  Again\n, do we then divide this issue by\ngender principle, or does it then\nbecome a question for us not of the possibility of\ntouching on the experience of what is\nhappening in Ukraine, but, that is, not about\nphysical presence, but about evasion of\nmilitary obligation.  Then again\n, who evades military\nservice?  whether it's the person who\nis abroad, or the person\nwho simply doesn't serve, or uh, well, that is, and\nthis seems to generate this huge set of\nquestions that no one wants to\nask anyone, but nevertheless, of all the people\nwho don't have an answer to this question, for some reason, for some reason,\nin the moments of these\nexecutions, it turns out that\ncultural institutions must have, must fulfill\nthis duty of a fictional, in fact,\nsocial contract.  Not because I\nthink it's bad or good.\nMy personal attitude towards this\nissue is of no\nimportance whatsoever.\nI'm actually interested in the mechanism itself.   It\nseems to me that Ukrainian contemporary\nart, in particular, has gone through a long, long\nhistory of\nresisting censorship strategies, and now\nwe have a demand for censorship of its people.\nAgain, we don't even know which\npeople, women, men, are here, which are\nthere, who are doing something, who are not doing something.\nUh, and we have this, we have this\ncensorship request.  And at the same time, first of all, there are no\ntools for this, for\ndoing this.  I have a hard time imagining a\nmechanism within which some\nart institution in Ukraine, when\ninviting an artist to an exhibition, would\ncheck, I don't know, his reserve plus.\nUh, we don't ask a woman how\nold she is when we hire her.\nWhy do we have to ask?\nSometimes I ask.   Well\n, I mean, excuse me, please, I\nmay be saying some very radical\nthings, but when we change some rules,\nwe have to understand what point we\nwant to get to by changing these rules, what\nwe want to achieve.\nAnd if we change the rules that have been developed over years to\ninclude people, we\nswitch them to mechanisms to exclude\npeople, then we have to come to a\nsocial agreement in which we say: \"\nHow many people do we want to be\nvisible, included, and which of them would have the\nright to vote?\"  And this is a very complex\nissue, on which, again, no one will\nagree and which will be a new\nFacebook scandal.\nWell, I think if I can just go into\nthis sensemaking or my impression of what\nyou're saying, yes, there is a societal\ndemand for justice during\nwar.\nThis public request is very\nclear.  Fulfilling this request is\ndifficult and impossible.\nAnd\nthis request\nextends to many aspects of our\nlives.  This request\nis also reflected in art.  And here the question for\neach institution is whether this\ninstitution is ready to serve this request and\ntry to find this justice, which is\nimpossible to find, because in reality we want\nto change reality.  This reality is\nunbearable for me.  It is very difficult\nto bear.  But if I now take away from the\nartistic work of certain people, their\nartistic work will not disappear and they themselves will\nnot disappear.  It just won't be\nin this common space.  And in\nart, visual art,\nfor example, unlike\nperformative art or some\nother arts, we deal with\nartifacts, with videos, with ideas, that is, with\nthings that live outside of people, without them for\nsome time.  And here too, the question will be\nwhether we want to abolish specific\npeople, whether we want to abolish this\nbody of work that exists, whether we believe that\nUkrainian art is so rich\nthat we can now abolish, I won't\nsay in percentages now, but\neither we can abolish half or more than\nhalf of the Ukrainian mass, or we are\nready to abolish it and say that\nwe don't have it.   It\nmay be an experiment to\ncontinue living in isolation, but at the same time,\nthis demand for justice is there\nand it even appears in me.  That is, I\nalso understand that it exists and that it is\nabsolutely normal, but where we\ndirect it is another story.  And\nI have a favorite story that I sometimes\nrepeat at meetings.  And it's such a joke,\nbut it's not a joke.\nI repeat, returning to pessimistic\nscenarios, sometimes at closed meetings I\nsay: \"Well, you know, if we\nall die here in Kyiv, who will\ntell the stories of our art?\"\nThose people who left.\nAnd maybe this story needs to be\npassed on and shared somehow, or\nwe need to try to maintain those connections that can\nstill be sustained.  I understand that\nsome relationships can't be maintained, and\nthat's absolutely okay.  But this is\nactually about such a general cancellation or\nabout individual stories that cannot be\ncontinued any further.  I can understand that.\nThere are also stories that I can't\ncontinue.  That's it.  But\nI completely agree with you.  In fact, the fact that\nI'm saying this emotionally right now is because I'm\nat this point too.  This is a\nreality that is simply impossible to\nbear.  Much easier.  Just\nremove yourself from this reality and let\nit drift away somewhere else.\nBut I also think about, uh, that someday this\nwar will end.  I don't know if we'll\nsurvive it, but it will\nend eventually.  If we pursue any\ncultural policy, we need to think not\nonly about how to survive it, but also about\nwho we will be when this war\nis over.  For example, if we say\nthat there is some Ukrainian culture,\nhow is it limited or\nmeasured?  Is this something that happens\nterritorially,\nif in a certain area?  Then again\n, in what territory?  In the territories\ncontrolled by the Ukrainian government, in the\nterritories within the borders of 1991.\nSo, do we then deny people\nwho are under occupation, or\nare in frontline zones and who\nalso have huge ethical challenges at home?\nAre we denying them that\nthe reality they are experiencing is not\nUkrainian culture?  Likewise, for me,\nthe question\nabout people who left in this reality of\nmigration that they are experiencing, are we\ndenying them that the experience\nthey are living is also part of\nUkrainian culture.  That is, there are some\nvery big fundamental things here that\nwe need to talk about.  In fact,\nwe should talk about this and we should\ndo projects on these topics.  And lastly,\nmaybe what I would like to add\nto all of this is,\nI just think that I have already\noffended enough\npeople with what I said.  I really, really,\nreally apologize.  Well, but I also think that what\nwe've encountered, the problem we've\nencountered, is what, uh, in English\nis called The Lack of Political\nImaginary.  We have no\npolitical imagination.\nYes.  We've reached a point where we, what we\nhave right now isn't working and we're pretty\nexhausted and don't have enough strength,\nspace to figure out how it\ncould work differently.  But I definitely\nthink that if we put as much effort into\ndeveloping strategies for including\npeople as we put into developing\nstrategies for excluding people, we would definitely\nbe in a slightly easier position.\nWe have to think about how to\nengage people.  Not only those who are\nabroad, but also those who are currently\ndeprived of the opportunity to be actively\npresent in this process, for example, the\nmilitary themselves.  But, well, the point is\nnot to just take works and\npresent them in every exhibition,\nbut the point is to, uh, again\nwithin this\nstrategy of political imaginary, look for\nways to ethically engage people in\nsuch a way that we can somehow\nhear each other.  And it seems to me that\nthe presence of one experience does not exclude\nanother experience.  It doesn't work that way.\nI wonder if we really need to hear\neach other?  That's one of the questions\nI was thinking about when I was preparing this\nconversation.\nAnd this also goes back to the Russian sown\nseed.  Is it possible that at this stage it would be\neasier for us to take a safe distance,\nrelatively speaking, and not seek such an\nactive inclusion strategy?  Perhaps this is\nalso a provocative question, a provocation,\nbut, uh, agreeing with everything you\nsaid, Alyona, about the request, this is not\njustice and an attempt\nto satisfy it, yes, uh, in this way,\nby setting some moral restrictions\n, uh, still,\nuh, and still, we are like these institutions,\nwhose life and whose existence will be provided\nor not by the military.  We probably owe them this, this\nsearch for justice is\nmandatory.  Even when it can be\nperceived as exclusion, it\ncan be perceived as possible now is the time to\nreally exclude someone.  Well, for the\nquota system and the equalization of\naccess system, it exists to\nexclude someone who has these privileges and\ninclude someone else.  Yes?  Can\nwe even talk about the possibility of\nsaying that those people who have left now\nand have access to foreign institutions,\nhave access to networking, to grants\nissued by the European Union and so on,\nto residencies, that they are important to us, they are\nUkrainian, they are Ukrainians, they are\nUkrainian artists, they are cultural\nfigures, but maybe now if their\ndramas and problems were the subject of study of\nthe communities in which they found themselves and the\nexperiences in those communities where\nthey are currently, and we still have the task of\nserving a different quota there.\nThat's what I have, if I were to ask a question, that I\nfully understand\nthe need to protect the space of art\nas a space where you can ask complex questions\nand come from a perspective that is\nnot serving the needs of\nsociety, hearing what is convenient, but\non the contrary, constantly provoking this society\na little with such a mirror.\nWell, still, perhaps, in our\ncultural environment, as in managers,\nthere is a need to use\nsome exclusion mechanisms to\ncreate justice.\nI will share my tactics for\nworking with this, because I am very grateful to you for\nmentioning the military, because we talked for a very long time\n, for example, about the experience of leaving,\nbut we did not talk about the military\nexperience now.  And this is an archival experience.  And my\ntactics, which may be wrong in\nthis, but how I work, in fact, are\nbased on the fact that the focus of my attention\nis concentrated on those who remain\ninside Ukraine.  Well, that is, in all\nprograms.  This doesn't mean that I don't work\nwith people abroad, but the focus of attention is\nmainly mine here, it's my decision.  And\nactually, most of the projects I\nwork with are aimed at people who\nremain inside Ukraine.  And\nworking with the scattered seeded, which\nalso has military personnel inside and has military\nexperience, and they are displayed there, it\nwas important for me\nto create two or three positions\nfor people who are in Ukraine for each such position.  In particular, simultaneously\nwith the scattered seeded, we\nhad a program for artistic dialogues\nbetween artists who are civilians and those who are\nmilitary.  Because our friends or\npeople who used to work in the assortment, well, who are\nnow serving, came for their first\nvacations, sat in our armchair and drank\ncoffee and said: \"They forgot about us.\"  Well, and\nI was very uncomfortable and hurt\nat that moment, because I understood that\nI was really uncomfortable writing to this\nperson about artistic issues, because I\nthought: \"Well, Alena, what questions are there\nabout the exhibition or about some quote,\nor I'll read it to see if your work is\ndescribed correctly.\"  After that, I realized that\nwe need to ask this and we need to change this, and\nwe need to find this space and this\nopportunity to support our colleagues\nwho are currently in the\nmilitary and want to continue their artistic practice in parallel,\nas much as possible, as well as those who are\nnot many who are now veterans and\nno longer serving.  It's important to support this,\nbut for me it's not mutually exclusive.\nFor me, it's more of a question of balance.  And in\neach practice, you can decide where it is a\nquestion of balance.  Well, in our practice, it is\nimportant to support those in Ukraine\nand for every one opportunity, create\nthree others.  Is it important to hear everyone?  Well,\ncan we hear everyone?  I am not.  Well, I'm\nrunning out of space very quickly.   At the same time,\nI try to at least\ndistinguish between where I am and my position and where the\ninstitution is.  Because me and my position are\nmy reality.  Who I communicate with, who\nI don't communicate with, how I build these\nboundaries of mine, this is something that is\nclose to my personal\njustice in my circle.  And there is an\ninstitution whose task, for example,\nis to show the entire local context\nthat exists, as in an assortment.  We took\nit on as a task.  Well, how do we now\ndo half of this local context?  We are not fulfilling our duty,\nthat he left.  You have to do it, that is,\nif we do it now, if we\ncome to this social\ncontract or something and for some reason we, as an\nindependent organization, decide\nto fulfill this social contract, even though\nwe don't have to, then we won't\nfulfill our\ninstitutional task.  Of course, we are\nconstantly in the process, of course, we are\nconstantly looking at what our institutional\ntasks are, but these are different things.  Asya, I\nthink, has already talked about what I think as a\nperson in each specific case and\nhow we act as an institution.  Of course, this\nis in the same direction, in the same\nvalue\nlandscape, but very large nuances are possible here\n.  As a human being, I can\nperceive this person's moral choices as\nnot unethical, but questionable.  And I\nmay not like this person's practices.\nIt just doesn't resonate with me.  But\nwithin the institution, within this\nexhibition, this practice is important for\nrepresentation.  And at this moment I\nrepresent her.  Or vice versa,\nI really like some person.  I think this\nperson is a moral guide for me.\nAnd I really like art too.  But\nin the institution, in the topics we\nare working on now, it is simply\nirrelevant.  And I will not promote this person\nto institutional work.  These are\ntwo things.  And, of course, in Ukraine\nwe often\ndon't make this distinction.  Well, that is,\nthe institutions, they are young.  The fact that an\ninstitution has its own autonomy, the fact that it\nworks according to slightly different rules than on a\nhuman level and, I don't know, in groups of\nfriends, is often very difficult to understand,\nbut, well, these are two different\nrealities, although, of course, they should\nbe inline with each other, because otherwise the\nquestion is: why am I in this institution if\nwe are not on the same path?   What\nI also find interesting here is this,\nagain, this state and\ncultural-political dimension, because on the\none hand, we again have this\nsocial demand for justice and\nfor, and it can manifest itself in this\nexclusion of some voices.  On the other\nhand, when we go to international venues,\nwe, well, we are often proud of the achievements of\nUkrainians who at one time or another\nleft historically or today, who are\nrealized professionally and who are then\nquoted by international media and invited by\ninternational platforms.  And here there is also a certain\n, if, in my opinion, well, inconsistency,\nso to speak.  Well, and I'm also interested in your\nview on how, for example, our\nstate institutions, such as the Ukrainian\nInstitute, whose task is to work directly with\nthe spread of Ukrainian in education,\ncan work with this new cultural\ncommunity that has left, assuming\nthat, again, based on your\nnegative experience, if they start\nactively implementing projects with people\nwho have left, they can also be put in this\n, well, in a position of condemnation\nfor incorrectly distributing\ntheir attention or, let's say,\nstanding in the way of, yes, this\njustice.\nAnd the Ukrainian institute no longer works with\npeople who left?\nI assume it works.  Uh, of course, but\nI'm talking about the fact that, uh, this\nissue has never been raised in such a direct way,\nnever before have we raised the\nissue of cooperation with someone based on whether they\nleft or not, up until this moment.\nThat's why this whole conversation,\nthat now, if only this discussion had changed a little\n, in my opinion.  But, uh, on the\nother hand, apparently there is a problem at the\nUkrainian Institute in cooperating with\npeople who left on their permits and\ndid not return.  I assume that they\nhave, uh, unfortunately, there is no\nrepresentative of the Ukrainian Institute here, uh,\nwho could answer this\ndirectly, but the question, actually, for me in\ngeneral is, uh, what could be a\nstrategy for cooperation with this cultural\ndiaspora that would be, uh, beneficial to\nus.\nBy the way, there is a hub in Berlin, it\nwas opened by Unity Hub, but it is\nsubordinate, if I'm not mistaken, to\nthe Ministry of\nSocial Policy.  That's it,\nyes, that's what it's called now.  I\napologize because they sometimes change\nnames.\nYes, we had a Ministry of\nNational Unity, which was closed with this.\nYes, it was announced, it opened.  This is a\nbeautiful space in a very nice\ncity in Berlin.  And very good events take place in it\n.\nAnd it unites those people,\nUkrainians, who currently\nlive in Berlin, who can organize\nvarious events there.  That is, this policy\nis happening and, of course, it should\nhappen.\nAt the state level, a policy of\nreturn and reintegration of people who have\nleft, including internally\ndisplaced persons, has been declared.  The way it\nis implemented, I think, causes a lot of\ncriticism and it is completely unclear\nhow, well, part of this policy is aimed\nat some kind of vision of the future or\napproximate expectations from the future, that\nsooner or later we need these people\nhere and we want to bring them back.\nHow this will be done is\nunclear.  And again, it\nseems to me that such episodes, well, such\nquarrels, they only complicate\nunderstanding how to return, because, well, when\na person is publicly exiled there, yes,\nor, uh, actually struck off the list of\nUkrainians, then it will probably be difficult for him to want to\nreturn.  Well, here the\nquestion for me now is at the point where\nwe find ourselves, are, the question is not\nonly how, but also where we are now at the\npoint where it is difficult for us to\ntalk about returning, because we need to\nunderstand how we will get out of this\nsituation that we have now, when\nthe war ends, how it will end, how many of\nus will see this moment of the end of the\nwar.  And in that moment of\nsuch frozen time, where we have a little\nmore difficulty seeing this future, perhaps, I'm\nnot sure, but perhaps one of the tactics\ncould be to preserve those connections that\ncan be preserved.   It\nseems to me that it is difficult for everyone to actively talk about return, both for those\npeople who, I don't know, are in Kyiv and those\npeople who are in Berlin, because they are\nwhat we are talking about, but this tactic of\nmaintaining ties, where it is possible,\nwhere other circumstances do not speak against it\n, may have the right to\nlive\non somehow, well, and you were right\nabout the lack of political imagination,\nbecause I lack it now, when I hear\nthe word return, I really lack\npolitical imagination.\nWhen I hear the word connections and preservation,\nI understand a little better what it's about\n.  And then we will live to see, we\nwill not live to see, we will not live to see.\nBut I think it's also very much\nabout, to\nquote the assortment room exhibition,\nit's about preserving a place for return.   Is\nn't this a physical piece of land that you can\nreturn to?  Although\nthis is also extremely important, and this is what\nwe are fighting for, it is also about the\nopportunity to return to this public\nconversation, to this\ncultural dialogue, to have a place for yourself there\nand also to have the\nopportunity, still preserved by the state, art institutions, and civilians, to\nspeak the\ntruth when you return, your\ntruth.  We are talking about those who\nleft.  For me, it's also like a question\nabout the military.  Are we willing to save\nspace for them, to come back and say what\nthey really want to say?  Are\nwe ready to hear all possible versions of the\ntruth?  Do we reserve space for\nexperiences that people actually go through\n, rather than in our ideal world of\ncultural politics where everyone is very\nbeautiful, black-browed, brown-eyed\nor blue-eyed?  We are\narguing here about race.  It's more\nabout\nwhat the task of state policy is,\nwhat the task of art institutions that want to\nimplement this policy is, depending on the\nmethod of their funding and if there are\ndifferent strategies of dependence.  But it is the\ntask of art institutions\nto maintain some rules of the world in which these\npeople will return and to preserve a\nplace to which they can return.  We\ncan very quickly decide on a lot of\nrules in which we ourselves will not find a\nplace.\nWell, I also wanted to emphasize that\nreturn is very important, so that this word\nis valid not only for people\nreturning from abroad, that's important,\nbut also for people returning from\nmilitary service, for people\nreturning from occupied territories, or\nfor people inside Ukraine who\nwant to return to the places\nthey left 5-78 years ago.  That is, do not\nforget that this concerns many\nthings in the end, returning to the\nforbidden word of peace.  How will we ourselves\nreturn to a different way of life if\nwe live to this point.\nI really appreciate that you emphasize the\ndanger of building up a lot of prohibitions and\nfinding yourself in a situation where we\nessentially forbid everything to everyone, but then we lose our\nunderstanding of reality altogether, which is a little more\ncomplicated than\nour demand for justice, which is,\nof course, an absolutely valid and very\npainful issue.\nIn conclusion, what I took away from this conversation for myself is that\nnow is definitely not the\ntime for any recipes or ethical\nadditions to statutes or institutions, but,\nuh, it's probably very important to preserve this\nspace for a place where we can honestly\ntalk to ourselves and bring these two\nunbearable realities side by side, probably\nfor our own, uh, and see and see\nthis our life as it is, with\nall its unpleasant\naspects.  I thank everyone for watching.  It\nwas UPM.  And let me remind you that this is a series of conversations\nthat is being published with the support of the G Factory\nArt Center in Lviv.  Subscribe,\ncomment, and you can suggest what we should\ntalk about next time.  Goodbye everyone.","duration_seconds":3234,"is_auto_generated":true,"transcript_source":"youtube_transcript_api","transcript_status":"available","asr_quality_weight":0.6,"transcript_segments":[{"text":"Yes, in fact, the law that","start":0.16,"duration":5.679},{"text":"these people are breaking does not exist.  They are violating their","start":3.08,"duration":5.479},{"text":"obligation to the Ministry of Culture.  This is not the","start":5.839,"duration":5.081},{"text":"law.  It's just that you promised something and didn't","start":8.559,"duration":5.2},{"text":"deliver.  My focus is","start":10.92,"duration":4.839},{"text":"on those who remain","start":13.759,"duration":4.761},{"text":"inside Ukraine.  There is neither an authority","start":15.759,"duration":5.121},{"text":"responsible for this return nor a","start":18.52,"duration":4.759},{"text":"legal mechanism to hold them","start":20.88,"duration":5.479},{"text":"accountable.  Such quarrels only","start":23.279,"duration":6.041},{"text":"make it more difficult to understand how to return.","start":26.359,"duration":6.441},{"text":"What exactly are we talking about?  About the fact that we","start":29.32,"duration":6.32},{"text":"don't work with those who left then.  Who is","start":32.8,"duration":5.0},{"text":"this?  Women or men?  And if we","start":35.64,"duration":5.28},{"text":"all die here in Kyiv, who","start":37.8,"duration":4.759},{"text":"will tell the stories of our","start":40.92,"duration":5.0},{"text":"art?  Those people who left.","start":42.559,"duration":6.281},{"text":"Hello everyone.  This is OP Jam, a place where we","start":45.92,"duration":4.88},{"text":"talk about issues and problems in","start":48.84,"duration":3.879},{"text":"Ukrainian culture.  And today's","start":50.8,"duration":5.04},{"text":"episode is dedicated to a rather annoying","start":52.719,"duration":5.52},{"text":"topic.  We will talk about the divided","start":55.84,"duration":5.08},{"text":"cultural community of those who left and","start":58.239,"duration":5.041},{"text":"those who stayed.  And I want to introduce","start":60.92,"duration":5.6},{"text":"the guests for today's episode.  This is Alena","start":63.28,"duration":5.36},{"text":"Karavay, curator and co-founder of the","start":66.52,"duration":3.88},{"text":"Assortment Room gallery in","start":68.64,"duration":5.04},{"text":"Ivano-Frankivsk, and Asya Tsisar, curator of the","start":70.4,"duration":6.32},{"text":"JM Factory art center in Lviv.  And I am Liza","start":73.68,"duration":5.36},{"text":"Korniychuk, editor-in-chief of UP","start":76.72,"duration":4.719},{"text":"Kultura.  I'll immediately make a disclaimer that","start":79.04,"duration":5.52},{"text":"we are meeting today in such a","start":81.439,"duration":6.72},{"text":"purely female company without men.","start":84.56,"duration":6.04},{"text":"Unfortunately, all the male guests we","start":88.159,"duration":5.6},{"text":"invited declined to participate.  And I","start":90.6,"duration":5.199},{"text":"think it just confirms that this","start":93.759,"duration":4.64},{"text":"topic is quite difficult to talk about and","start":95.799,"duration":5.161},{"text":"quite difficult to","start":98.399,"duration":4.921},{"text":"discuss publicly, but it's still important for us","start":100.96,"duration":5.08},{"text":"to discuss the tensions that","start":103.32,"duration":5.119},{"text":"arise around this division of the","start":106.04,"duration":4.2},{"text":"cultural community.  Therefore,","start":108.439,"duration":4.0},{"text":"we will discuss this composition with the","start":110.24,"duration":5.4},{"text":"disclaimer that we are all unrestricted in our","start":112.439,"duration":6.201},{"text":"travel and are free and not subject to","start":115.64,"duration":5.36},{"text":"military service.  Asya, I want to","start":118.64,"duration":5.519},{"text":"start with the topic that probably launched","start":121.0,"duration":5.439},{"text":"and, well, greatly increased the attention","start":124.159,"duration":5.96},{"text":"to this conversation.  This is a recent exhibition by","start":126.439,"duration":6.561},{"text":"GM Factory Center, which,","start":130.119,"duration":5.2},{"text":"unfortunately, attracted attention not because of the","start":133.0,"duration":4.879},{"text":"theme of the exhibition, which is independent","start":135.319,"duration":4.441},{"text":"self-organized cultural spaces, but","start":137.879,"duration":4.561},{"text":"because of the curatorial staff.  in a fairly","start":139.76,"duration":5.08},{"text":"large curatorial group.  Among them","start":142.44,"duration":6.64},{"text":"was a male curator who left, uh,","start":144.84,"duration":6.72},{"text":"Ukraine in 2022 with permission from, uh,","start":149.08,"duration":4.799},{"text":"the Ministry of Culture and never returned, thereby violating","start":151.56,"duration":7.12},{"text":"the law.  So this fact became quite","start":153.879,"duration":8.161},{"text":"loud and the","start":158.68,"duration":5.4},{"text":"subject of heated discussion, but it","start":162.04,"duration":5.8},{"text":"also revealed in principle the","start":164.08,"duration":5.36},{"text":"social inequality that worries the","start":167.84,"duration":4.0},{"text":"Ukrainian community.","start":169.44,"duration":4.48},{"text":"including the cultural community itself.  I would like to","start":171.84,"duration":5.16},{"text":"ask you to comment on this","start":173.92,"duration":6.319},{"text":"episode and how you, as an institution,","start":177.0,"duration":6.68},{"text":"resolved this issue for yourself and whether you","start":180.239,"duration":6.64},{"text":"perhaps took with you some, well, uh,","start":183.68,"duration":5.559},{"text":"let's say, ethical reservations, yes, that","start":186.879,"duration":5.201},{"text":"you continue to work with after this","start":189.239,"duration":3.64},{"text":"episode.","start":192.08,"duration":2.12},{"text":"I'm not sure that all the people who","start":192.879,"duration":4.521},{"text":"will be watching this podcast, uh, really","start":194.2,"duration":7.119},{"text":"cared about what was going on.  Well, on","start":197.4,"duration":5.64},{"text":"Facebook and in general, the discussion","start":201.319,"duration":4.0},{"text":"around the exhibition and this","start":203.04,"duration":6.16},{"text":"situation.  Well, and on the but we, as","start":205.319,"duration":6.28},{"text":"JМ Factory, dedicated a whole big public conversation, an","start":209.2,"duration":4.36},{"text":"open interview, uh, to","start":211.599,"duration":4.121},{"text":"answering these questions.  But","start":213.56,"duration":5.52},{"text":"just to give some context, uh,","start":215.72,"duration":6.439},{"text":"this exhibition happened through a competition.  And when","start":219.08,"duration":6.84},{"text":"we were choosing the project, we knew that Anton and","start":222.159,"duration":6.44},{"text":"his co-curator, uh, Anastasia,","start":225.92,"duration":5.239},{"text":"were abroad.  We did not know","start":228.599,"duration":5.321},{"text":"the circumstances of Anton's departure.  And at that time,","start":231.159,"duration":4.841},{"text":"it was quite organic for us,","start":233.92,"duration":6.12},{"text":"uh, a combination of curators who have their own","start":236.0,"duration":5.76},{"text":"independent Artist Tran Space and","start":240.04,"duration":3.36},{"text":"work in Ukraine, curators who","start":241.76,"duration":4.839},{"text":"worked in Ukraine and","start":243.4,"duration":5.679},{"text":"now work abroad.  That is, it","start":246.599,"duration":5.081},{"text":"seemed to us that in","start":249.079,"duration":4.641},{"text":"this way we would be able to maintain a certain","start":251.68,"duration":5.36},{"text":"equality of experiences.  After all, these projects, those","start":253.72,"duration":5.519},{"text":"artist-run spaces that the","start":257.04,"duration":5.92},{"text":"exhibition presents, also quite","start":259.239,"duration":5.201},{"text":"reflect the situation in modern","start":262.96,"duration":3.32},{"text":"Ukrainian culture.  There are spaces","start":264.44,"duration":3.96},{"text":"that have ceased to exist, people who","start":266.28,"duration":6.08},{"text":"have left, spaces that exist in exile,","start":268.4,"duration":6.56},{"text":"spaces that half-exist.  Some","start":272.36,"duration":4.839},{"text":"of the founders of the vast expanse","start":274.96,"duration":3.84},{"text":"serve, some live abroad, and so on","start":277.199,"duration":2.961},{"text":"and so forth.  This was, in our","start":278.8,"duration":6.2},{"text":"opinion, a rather organic m and e ethical e","start":280.16,"duration":6.68},{"text":"ethical way of presenting various","start":285.0,"duration":3.639},{"text":"experiences, e, through which","start":286.84,"duration":4.32},{"text":"independent Ukrainian culture passes.  But at a","start":288.639,"duration":5.721},{"text":"certain point,","start":291.16,"duration":6.319},{"text":"the curators invited her to one of the","start":294.36,"duration":6.36},{"text":"spaces, the interior space.  And so it","start":297.479,"duration":5.921},{"text":"happened that we found out the circumstances of","start":300.72,"duration":4.36},{"text":"Anton's departure.  And for us, it was a","start":303.4,"duration":5.12},{"text":"big, big ethical dilemma, because in","start":305.08,"duration":5.24},{"text":"reality,","start":308.52,"duration":4.92},{"text":"if we wanted to","start":310.32,"duration":6.8},{"text":"consciously raise this topic, we would have chosen a","start":313.44,"duration":6.879},{"text":"different format.  We would try to be more","start":317.12,"duration":6.799},{"text":"ecological.  We would try, well, I","start":320.319,"duration":7.32},{"text":"mean I'm now talking in a","start":323.919,"duration":6.641},{"text":"conditional way, what would happen if, but","start":327.639,"duration":6.041},{"text":"if we had consciously not put ourselves in","start":330.56,"duration":4.88},{"text":"such a situation.  But the situation we","start":333.68,"duration":5.079},{"text":"found ourselves in actually seems very","start":335.44,"duration":6.039},{"text":"interesting and important to me, because in","start":338.759,"duration":8.121},{"text":"fact we had to either deny the","start":341.479,"duration":8.681},{"text":"right of a person who went abroad to make","start":346.88,"duration":4.84},{"text":"this exhibition and accordingly close the","start":350.16,"duration":3.64},{"text":"exhibition, because as a curator he has the","start":351.72,"duration":3.8},{"text":"copyright to his idea.  We","start":353.8,"duration":3.64},{"text":"cannot implement this idea without him.  And","start":355.52,"duration":4.679},{"text":"thus, we would have to","start":357.44,"duration":5.759},{"text":"cancel the exhibition accordingly and cancel the","start":360.199,"duration":6.44},{"text":"participation of almost 200 other people, artists, and","start":363.199,"duration":6.12},{"text":"spaces who were involved in it.  We","start":366.639,"duration":5.361},{"text":"decided that if you have a situation like this hanging in the balance","start":369.319,"duration":5.681},{"text":", we decided that we didn't want to","start":372.0,"duration":5.84},{"text":"sacrifice the project.","start":375.0,"duration":6.52},{"text":"We also probably don't want","start":377.84,"duration":8.24},{"text":"to appear as an institution that is afraid of","start":381.52,"duration":7.6},{"text":"public condemnation, that sweeps problems","start":386.08,"duration":6.119},{"text":"under the carpet.  That is, when the curators","start":389.12,"duration":5.919},{"text":"invited the interior space, uh, one","start":392.199,"duration":4.881},{"text":"of the founders of the interior space,","start":395.039,"duration":4.481},{"text":"Denis, is a military man.  And","start":397.08,"duration":4.64},{"text":"the condition of his participation in this exhibition was that","start":399.52,"duration":4.48},{"text":"at every mention of the interior space, the","start":401.72,"duration":4.96},{"text":"curators must voice and","start":404.0,"duration":5.16},{"text":"publish a statement that actually","start":406.68,"duration":6.72},{"text":"states his disagreement with being","start":409.16,"duration":6.039},{"text":"part of this exhibition precisely because of the","start":413.4,"duration":5.16},{"text":"reason why one of the curators left.","start":415.199,"duration":5.201},{"text":"Denis could have written anything in this statement","start":418.56,"duration":4.319},{"text":", and we could have radically","start":420.4,"duration":6.96},{"text":"disagreed with it.  He is, but he raised an","start":422.879,"duration":7.481},{"text":"issue that we also consider important.","start":427.36,"duration":5.519},{"text":"We consider it unspoken, we","start":430.36,"duration":5.16},{"text":"consider it systematic","start":432.879,"duration":5.201},{"text":"and generally a stalemate for modern","start":435.52,"duration":4.88},{"text":"Ukrainian culture.  Because instead of","start":438.08,"duration":4.16},{"text":"talking about it and making it","start":440.4,"duration":4.68},{"text":"visible and looking for some kind of solution, in","start":442.24,"duration":6.44},{"text":"most cases the decision is made to","start":445.08,"duration":6.2},{"text":"simply keep this situation quiet.  We","start":448.68,"duration":4.56},{"text":"made a conscious choice to post this","start":451.28,"duration":4.96},{"text":"statement.  And just to conclude what","start":453.24,"duration":5.04},{"text":"I'm saying, this exhibition was actually not","start":456.24,"duration":4.6},{"text":"under-examined.","start":458.28,"duration":5.12},{"text":"And there were five or","start":460.84,"duration":5.12},{"text":"six great critical texts published about this exhibition,","start":463.4,"duration":4.199},{"text":"which talked about the problems of independent","start":465.96,"duration":3.84},{"text":"culture, including the Ukrainian Cultural Institute","start":467.599,"duration":4.72},{"text":"in particular, and all of these","start":469.8,"duration":5.119},{"text":"texts mentioned Denis's statement and","start":472.319,"duration":4.961},{"text":"mentioned this disagreement and mentioned this","start":474.919,"duration":5.161},{"text":"gap.  But in fact, the great public","start":477.28,"duration":4.639},{"text":"outcry and what we call the","start":480.08,"duration":5.28},{"text":"Facebook backlash arose precisely because of the way, the very","start":481.919,"duration":5.601},{"text":"specific way, in which the author of","start":485.36,"duration":4.679},{"text":"the text formulated the problem.","start":487.52,"duration":4.88},{"text":"This is a column on a public forum","start":490.039,"duration":4.84},{"text":"by the author under the name Joshpszyk for","start":492.4,"duration":4.479},{"text":"context.  I'm going to interrupt you a little here, because it","start":494.879,"duration":4.201},{"text":"seems to me to be an interesting situation that","start":496.879,"duration":4.961},{"text":"in your case it would have","start":499.08,"duration":4.88},{"text":"worked and attracted a lot of attention,","start":501.84,"duration":5.16},{"text":"but in reality it's, well, quite, well, we","start":503.96,"duration":5.199},{"text":"know about, we know","start":507.0,"duration":5.519},{"text":"about many episodes of different","start":509.159,"duration":6.56},{"text":"artists there or cultural figures who","start":512.519,"duration":6.281},{"text":"are not in Ukraine.  And this","start":515.719,"duration":4.76},{"text":"social weight works very differently","start":518.8,"duration":3.52},{"text":", yes, it works for some.","start":520.479,"duration":4.281},{"text":"They can do a project in Ukraine and","start":522.32,"duration":4.44},{"text":"remain unnoticed by this","start":524.76,"duration":5.92},{"text":"moral sediment and even be","start":526.76,"duration":6.199},{"text":"recognized and celebrated, relatively","start":530.68,"duration":6.0},{"text":"speaking, uh, uh, in the community.  And for some,","start":532.959,"duration":5.921}],"view_count_at_fetch":16479,"transcript_available":true,"source_universe_backfill":{"version":"source_universe_backfill.v1","backfilled_at":"2026-08-31T08:07:19.668328+00:00","resolver_warnings":[],"resolved_source_family":"video_media"},"transcript_last_attempted_at":"2026-08-30T06:14:53.803279+00:00"},"tags_json":[],"is_discovered_source":false},"transcript":{"segment_count":200,"markdown":"# Transcript\n\n## Segment 1\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nYes, in fact, the law that\n\n## Segment 2\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthese people are breaking does not exist. They are violating their\n\n## Segment 3\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nobligation to the Ministry of Culture. This is not the\n\n## Segment 4\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nlaw. It's just that you promised something and didn't\n\n## Segment 5\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ndeliver. My focus is\n\n## Segment 6\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\non those who remain\n\n## Segment 7\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ninside Ukraine. There is neither an authority\n\n## Segment 8\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nresponsible for this return nor a\n\n## Segment 9\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nlegal mechanism to hold them\n\n## Segment 10\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\naccountable. Such quarrels only\n\n## Segment 11\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nmake it more difficult to understand how to return.\n\n## Segment 12\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nWhat exactly are we talking about? About the fact that we\n\n## Segment 13\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ndon't work with those who left then. Who is\n\n## Segment 14\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthis? Women or men? And if we\n\n## Segment 15\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nall die here in Kyiv, who\n\n## Segment 16\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwill tell the stories of our\n\n## Segment 17\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nart? Those people who left.\n\n## Segment 18\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nHello everyone. This is OP Jam, a place where we\n\n## Segment 19\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ntalk about issues and problems in\n\n## Segment 20\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nUkrainian culture. And today's\n\n## Segment 21\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nepisode is dedicated to a rather annoying\n\n## Segment 22\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ntopic. We will talk about the divided\n\n## Segment 23\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncultural community of those who left and\n\n## Segment 24\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthose who stayed. And I want to introduce\n\n## Segment 25\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthe guests for today's episode. This is Alena\n\n## Segment 26\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nKaravay, curator and co-founder of the\n\n## Segment 27\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nAssortment Room gallery in\n\n## Segment 28\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nIvano-Frankivsk, and Asya Tsisar, curator of the\n\n## Segment 29\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nJM Factory art center in Lviv. And I am Liza\n\n## Segment 30\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nKorniychuk, editor-in-chief of UP\n\n## Segment 31\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nKultura. I'll immediately make a disclaimer that\n\n## Segment 32\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwe are meeting today in such a\n\n## Segment 33\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\npurely female company without men.\n\n## Segment 34\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nUnfortunately, all the male guests we\n\n## Segment 35\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ninvited declined to participate. And I\n\n## Segment 36\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthink it just confirms that this\n\n## Segment 37\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ntopic is quite difficult to talk about and\n\n## Segment 38\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nquite difficult to\n\n## Segment 39\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ndiscuss publicly, but it's still important for us\n\n## Segment 40\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nto discuss the tensions that\n\n## Segment 41\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\narise around this division of the\n\n## Segment 42\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncultural community. Therefore,\n\n## Segment 43\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwe will discuss this composition with the\n\n## Segment 44\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ndisclaimer that we are all unrestricted in our\n\n## Segment 45\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ntravel and are free and not subject to\n\n## Segment 46\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nmilitary service. Asya, I want to\n\n## Segment 47\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nstart with the topic that probably launched\n\n## Segment 48\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nand, well, greatly increased the attention\n\n## Segment 49\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nto this conversation. This is a recent exhibition by\n\n## Segment 50\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nGM Factory Center, which,\n\n## Segment 51\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nunfortunately, attracted attention not because of the\n\n## Segment 52\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ntheme of the exhibition, which is independent\n\n## Segment 53\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nself-organized cultural spaces, but\n\n## Segment 54\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nbecause of the curatorial staff. in a fairly\n\n## Segment 55\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nlarge curatorial group. Among them\n\n## Segment 56\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwas a male curator who left, uh,\n\n## Segment 57\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nUkraine in 2022 with permission from, uh,\n\n## Segment 58\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthe Ministry of Culture and never returned, thereby violating\n\n## Segment 59\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthe law. So this fact became quite\n\n## Segment 60\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nloud and the\n\n## Segment 61\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nsubject of heated discussion, but it\n\n## Segment 62\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nalso revealed in principle the\n\n## Segment 63\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nsocial inequality that worries the\n\n## Segment 64\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nUkrainian community.\n\n## Segment 65\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nincluding the cultural community itself. I would like to\n\n## Segment 66\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nask you to comment on this\n\n## Segment 67\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nepisode and how you, as an institution,\n\n## Segment 68\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nresolved this issue for yourself and whether you\n\n## Segment 69\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nperhaps took with you some, well, uh,\n\n## Segment 70\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nlet's say, ethical reservations, yes, that\n\n## Segment 71\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nyou continue to work with after this\n\n## Segment 72\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nepisode.\n\n## Segment 73\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nI'm not sure that all the people who\n\n## Segment 74\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwill be watching this podcast, uh, really\n\n## Segment 75\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncared about what was going on. Well, on\n\n## Segment 76\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nFacebook and in general, the discussion\n\n## Segment 77\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\naround the exhibition and this\n\n## Segment 78\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nsituation. Well, and on the but we, as\n\n## Segment 79\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nJМ Factory, dedicated a whole big public conversation, an\n\n## Segment 80\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nopen interview, uh, to\n\n## Segment 81\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nanswering these questions. But\n\n## Segment 82\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\njust to give some context, uh,\n\n## Segment 83\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthis exhibition happened through a competition. And when\n\n## Segment 84\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwe were choosing the project, we knew that Anton and\n\n## Segment 85\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nhis co-curator, uh, Anastasia,\n\n## Segment 86\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwere abroad. We did not know\n\n## Segment 87\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthe circumstances of Anton's departure. And at that time,\n\n## Segment 88\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nit was quite organic for us,\n\n## Segment 89\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nuh, a combination of curators who have their own\n\n## Segment 90\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nindependent Artist Tran Space and\n\n## Segment 91\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwork in Ukraine, curators who\n\n## Segment 92\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nworked in Ukraine and\n\n## Segment 93\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nnow work abroad. That is, it\n\n## Segment 94\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nseemed to us that in\n\n## Segment 95\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthis way we would be able to maintain a certain\n\n## Segment 96\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nequality of experiences. After all, these projects, those\n\n## Segment 97\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nartist-run spaces that the\n\n## Segment 98\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nexhibition presents, also quite\n\n## Segment 99\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nreflect the situation in modern\n\n## Segment 100\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nUkrainian culture. There are spaces\n\n## Segment 101\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthat have ceased to exist, people who\n\n## Segment 102\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nhave left, spaces that exist in exile,\n\n## Segment 103\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nspaces that half-exist. Some\n\n## Segment 104\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nof the founders of the vast expanse\n\n## Segment 105\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nserve, some live abroad, and so on\n\n## Segment 106\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nand so forth. This was, in our\n\n## Segment 107\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nopinion, a rather organic m and e ethical e\n\n## Segment 108\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nethical way of presenting various\n\n## Segment 109\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nexperiences, e, through which\n\n## Segment 110\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nindependent Ukrainian culture passes. But at a\n\n## Segment 111\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncertain point,\n\n## Segment 112\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthe curators invited her to one of the\n\n## Segment 113\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nspaces, the interior space. And so it\n\n## Segment 114\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nhappened that we found out the circumstances of\n\n## Segment 115\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nAnton's departure. And for us, it was a\n\n## Segment 116\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nbig, big ethical dilemma, because in\n\n## Segment 117\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nreality,\n\n## Segment 118\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nif we wanted to\n\n## Segment 119\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nconsciously raise this topic, we would have chosen a\n\n## Segment 120\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ndifferent format. We would try to be more\n\n## Segment 121\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\necological. We would try, well, I\n\n## Segment 122\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nmean I'm now talking in a\n\n## Segment 123\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nconditional way, what would happen if, but\n\n## Segment 124\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nif we had consciously not put ourselves in\n\n## Segment 125\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nsuch a situation. But the situation we\n\n## Segment 126\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nfound ourselves in actually seems very\n\n## Segment 127\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ninteresting and important to me, because in\n\n## Segment 128\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nfact we had to either deny the\n\n## Segment 129\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nright of a person who went abroad to make\n\n## Segment 130\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthis exhibition and accordingly close the\n\n## Segment 131\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nexhibition, because as a curator he has the\n\n## Segment 132\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncopyright to his idea. We\n\n## Segment 133\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncannot implement this idea without him. And\n\n## Segment 134\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthus, we would have to\n\n## Segment 135\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncancel the exhibition accordingly and cancel the\n\n## Segment 136\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nparticipation of almost 200 other people, artists, and\n\n## Segment 137\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nspaces who were involved in it. We\n\n## Segment 138\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ndecided that if you have a situation like this hanging in the balance\n\n## Segment 139\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\n, we decided that we didn't want to\n\n## Segment 140\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nsacrifice the project.\n\n## Segment 141\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nWe also probably don't want\n\n## Segment 142\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nto appear as an institution that is afraid of\n\n## Segment 143\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\npublic condemnation, that sweeps problems\n\n## Segment 144\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nunder the carpet. That is, when the curators\n\n## Segment 145\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ninvited the interior space, uh, one\n\n## Segment 146\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nof the founders of the interior space,\n\n## Segment 147\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nDenis, is a military man. And\n\n## Segment 148\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthe condition of his participation in this exhibition was that\n\n## Segment 149\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nat every mention of the interior space, the\n\n## Segment 150\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncurators must voice and\n\n## Segment 151\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\npublish a statement that actually\n\n## Segment 152\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nstates his disagreement with being\n\n## Segment 153\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\npart of this exhibition precisely because of the\n\n## Segment 154\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nreason why one of the curators left.\n\n## Segment 155\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nDenis could have written anything in this statement\n\n## Segment 156\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\n, and we could have radically\n\n## Segment 157\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ndisagreed with it. He is, but he raised an\n\n## Segment 158\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nissue that we also consider important.\n\n## Segment 159\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nWe consider it unspoken, we\n\n## Segment 160\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nconsider it systematic\n\n## Segment 161\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nand generally a stalemate for modern\n\n## Segment 162\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nUkrainian culture. Because instead of\n\n## Segment 163\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ntalking about it and making it\n\n## Segment 164\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nvisible and looking for some kind of solution, in\n\n## Segment 165\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nmost cases the decision is made to\n\n## Segment 166\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nsimply keep this situation quiet. We\n\n## Segment 167\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nmade a conscious choice to post this\n\n## Segment 168\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nstatement. And just to conclude what\n\n## Segment 169\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nI'm saying, this exhibition was actually not\n\n## Segment 170\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nunder-examined.\n\n## Segment 171\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nAnd there were five or\n\n## Segment 172\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nsix great critical texts published about this exhibition,\n\n## Segment 173\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nwhich talked about the problems of independent\n\n## Segment 174\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nculture, including the Ukrainian Cultural Institute\n\n## Segment 175\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nin particular, and all of these\n\n## Segment 176\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ntexts mentioned Denis's statement and\n\n## Segment 177\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nmentioned this disagreement and mentioned this\n\n## Segment 178\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ngap. But in fact, the great public\n\n## Segment 179\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\noutcry and what we call the\n\n## Segment 180\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nFacebook backlash arose precisely because of the way, the very\n\n## Segment 181\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nspecific way, in which the author of\n\n## Segment 182\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nthe text formulated the problem.\n\n## Segment 183\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nThis is a column on a public forum\n\n## Segment 184\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nby the author under the name Joshpszyk for\n\n## Segment 185\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\ncontext. I'm going to interrupt you a little here, because it\n\n## Segment 186\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nseems to me to be an interesting situation that\n\n## Segment 187\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nin your case it would have\n\n## Segment 188\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nworked and attracted a lot of attention,\n\n## Segment 189\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nbut in reality it's, well, quite, well, we\n\n## Segment 190\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nknow about, we know\n\n## Segment 191\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nabout many episodes of different\n\n## Segment 192\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nartists there or cultural figures who\n\n## Segment 193\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nare not in Ukraine. And this\n\n## Segment 194\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nsocial weight works very differently\n\n## Segment 195\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\n, yes, it works for some.\n\n## Segment 196\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nThey can do a project in Ukraine and\n\n## Segment 197\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nremain unnoticed by this\n\n## Segment 198\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nmoral sediment and even be\n\n## Segment 199\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nrecognized and celebrated, relatively\n\n## Segment 200\n\n**Speaker:** Unknown speaker\n\nspeaking, uh, uh, in the community. And for some,","text":"[segment 0] Unknown speaker: Yes, in fact, the law that\n[segment 1] Unknown speaker: these people are breaking does not exist. They are violating their\n[segment 2] Unknown speaker: obligation to the Ministry of Culture. This is not the\n[segment 3] Unknown speaker: law. It's just that you promised something and didn't\n[segment 4] Unknown speaker: deliver. My focus is\n[segment 5] Unknown speaker: on those who remain\n[segment 6] Unknown speaker: inside Ukraine. There is neither an authority\n[segment 7] Unknown speaker: responsible for this return nor a\n[segment 8] Unknown speaker: legal mechanism to hold them\n[segment 9] Unknown speaker: accountable. Such quarrels only\n[segment 10] Unknown speaker: make it more difficult to understand how to return.\n[segment 11] Unknown speaker: What exactly are we talking about? About the fact that we\n[segment 12] Unknown speaker: don't work with those who left then. Who is\n[segment 13] Unknown speaker: this? Women or men? And if we\n[segment 14] Unknown speaker: all die here in Kyiv, who\n[segment 15] Unknown speaker: will tell the stories of our\n[segment 16] Unknown speaker: art? Those people who left.\n[segment 17] Unknown speaker: Hello everyone. This is OP Jam, a place where we\n[segment 18] Unknown speaker: talk about issues and problems in\n[segment 19] Unknown speaker: Ukrainian culture. And today's\n[segment 20] Unknown speaker: episode is dedicated to a rather annoying\n[segment 21] Unknown speaker: topic. We will talk about the divided\n[segment 22] Unknown speaker: cultural community of those who left and\n[segment 23] Unknown speaker: those who stayed. And I want to introduce\n[segment 24] Unknown speaker: the guests for today's episode. This is Alena\n[segment 25] Unknown speaker: Karavay, curator and co-founder of the\n[segment 26] Unknown speaker: Assortment Room gallery in\n[segment 27] Unknown speaker: Ivano-Frankivsk, and Asya Tsisar, curator of the\n[segment 28] Unknown speaker: JM Factory art center in Lviv. And I am Liza\n[segment 29] Unknown speaker: Korniychuk, editor-in-chief of UP\n[segment 30] Unknown speaker: Kultura. I'll immediately make a disclaimer that\n[segment 31] Unknown speaker: we are meeting today in such a\n[segment 32] Unknown speaker: purely female company without men.\n[segment 33] Unknown speaker: Unfortunately, all the male guests we\n[segment 34] Unknown speaker: invited declined to participate. And I\n[segment 35] Unknown speaker: think it just confirms that this\n[segment 36] Unknown speaker: topic is quite difficult to talk about and\n[segment 37] Unknown speaker: quite difficult to\n[segment 38] Unknown speaker: discuss publicly, but it's still important for us\n[segment 39] Unknown speaker: to discuss the tensions that\n[segment 40] Unknown speaker: arise around this division of the\n[segment 41] Unknown speaker: cultural community. Therefore,\n[segment 42] Unknown speaker: we will discuss this composition with the\n[segment 43] Unknown speaker: disclaimer that we are all unrestricted in our\n[segment 44] Unknown speaker: travel and are free and not subject to\n[segment 45] Unknown speaker: military service. Asya, I want to\n[segment 46] Unknown speaker: start with the topic that probably launched\n[segment 47] Unknown speaker: and, well, greatly increased the attention\n[segment 48] Unknown speaker: to this conversation. This is a recent exhibition by\n[segment 49] Unknown speaker: GM Factory Center, which,\n[segment 50] Unknown speaker: unfortunately, attracted attention not because of the\n[segment 51] Unknown speaker: theme of the exhibition, which is independent\n[segment 52] Unknown speaker: self-organized cultural spaces, but\n[segment 53] Unknown speaker: because of the curatorial staff. in a fairly\n[segment 54] Unknown speaker: large curatorial group. Among them\n[segment 55] Unknown speaker: was a male curator who left, uh,\n[segment 56] Unknown speaker: Ukraine in 2022 with permission from, uh,\n[segment 57] Unknown speaker: the Ministry of Culture and never returned, thereby violating\n[segment 58] Unknown speaker: the law. So this fact became quite\n[segment 59] Unknown speaker: loud and the\n[segment 60] Unknown speaker: subject of heated discussion, but it\n[segment 61] Unknown speaker: also revealed in principle the\n[segment 62] Unknown speaker: social inequality that worries the\n[segment 63] Unknown speaker: Ukrainian community.\n[segment 64] Unknown speaker: including the cultural community itself. I would like to\n[segment 65] Unknown speaker: ask you to comment on this\n[segment 66] Unknown speaker: episode and how you, as an institution,\n[segment 67] Unknown speaker: resolved this issue for yourself and whether you\n[segment 68] Unknown speaker: perhaps took with you some, well, uh,\n[segment 69] Unknown speaker: let's say, ethical reservations, yes, that\n[segment 70] Unknown speaker: you continue to work with after this\n[segment 71] Unknown speaker: episode.\n[segment 72] Unknown speaker: I'm not sure that all the people who\n[segment 73] Unknown speaker: will be watching this podcast, uh, really\n[segment 74] Unknown speaker: cared about what was going on. Well, on\n[segment 75] Unknown speaker: Facebook and in general, the discussion\n[segment 76] Unknown speaker: around the exhibition and this\n[segment 77] Unknown speaker: situation. Well, and on the but we, as\n[segment 78] Unknown speaker: JМ Factory, dedicated a whole big public conversation, an\n[segment 79] Unknown speaker: open interview, uh, to\n[segment 80] Unknown speaker: answering these questions. But\n[segment 81] Unknown speaker: just to give some context, uh,\n[segment 82] Unknown speaker: this exhibition happened through a competition. And when\n[segment 83] Unknown speaker: we were choosing the project, we knew that Anton and\n[segment 84] Unknown speaker: his co-curator, uh, Anastasia,\n[segment 85] Unknown speaker: were abroad. We did not know\n[segment 86] Unknown speaker: the circumstances of Anton's departure. And at that time,\n[segment 87] Unknown speaker: it was quite organic for us,\n[segment 88] Unknown speaker: uh, a combination of curators who have their own\n[segment 89] Unknown speaker: independent Artist Tran Space and\n[segment 90] Unknown speaker: work in Ukraine, curators who\n[segment 91] Unknown speaker: worked in Ukraine and\n[segment 92] Unknown speaker: now work abroad. That is, it\n[segment 93] Unknown speaker: seemed to us that in\n[segment 94] Unknown speaker: this way we would be able to maintain a certain\n[segment 95] Unknown speaker: equality of experiences. After all, these projects, those\n[segment 96] Unknown speaker: artist-run spaces that the\n[segment 97] Unknown speaker: exhibition presents, also quite\n[segment 98] Unknown speaker: reflect the situation in modern\n[segment 99] Unknown speaker: Ukrainian culture. There are spaces\n[segment 100] Unknown speaker: that have ceased to exist, people who\n[segment 101] Unknown speaker: have left, spaces that exist in exile,\n[segment 102] Unknown speaker: spaces that half-exist. Some\n[segment 103] Unknown speaker: of the founders of the vast expanse\n[segment 104] Unknown speaker: serve, some live abroad, and so on\n[segment 105] Unknown speaker: and so forth. This was, in our\n[segment 106] Unknown speaker: opinion, a rather organic m and e ethical e\n[segment 107] Unknown speaker: ethical way of presenting various\n[segment 108] Unknown speaker: experiences, e, through which\n[segment 109] Unknown speaker: independent Ukrainian culture passes. But at a\n[segment 110] Unknown speaker: certain point,\n[segment 111] Unknown speaker: the curators invited her to one of the\n[segment 112] Unknown speaker: spaces, the interior space. And so it\n[segment 113] Unknown speaker: happened that we found out the circumstances of\n[segment 114] Unknown speaker: Anton's departure. And for us, it was a\n[segment 115] Unknown speaker: big, big ethical dilemma, because in\n[segment 116] Unknown speaker: reality,\n[segment 117] Unknown speaker: if we wanted to\n[segment 118] Unknown speaker: consciously raise this topic, we would have chosen a\n[segment 119] Unknown speaker: different format. We would try to be more\n[segment 120] Unknown speaker: ecological. We would try, well, I\n[segment 121] Unknown speaker: mean I'm now talking in a\n[segment 122] Unknown speaker: conditional way, what would happen if, but\n[segment 123] Unknown speaker: if we had consciously not put ourselves in\n[segment 124] Unknown speaker: such a situation. But the situation we\n[segment 125] Unknown speaker: found ourselves in actually seems very\n[segment 126] Unknown speaker: interesting and important to me, because in\n[segment 127] Unknown speaker: fact we had to either deny the\n[segment 128] Unknown speaker: right of a person who went abroad to make\n[segment 129] Unknown speaker: this exhibition and accordingly close the\n[segment 130] Unknown speaker: exhibition, because as a curator he has the\n[segment 131] Unknown speaker: copyright to his idea. We\n[segment 132] Unknown speaker: cannot implement this idea without him. And\n[segment 133] Unknown speaker: thus, we would have to\n[segment 134] Unknown speaker: cancel the exhibition accordingly and cancel the\n[segment 135] Unknown speaker: participation of almost 200 other people, artists, and\n[segment 136] Unknown speaker: spaces who were involved in it. We\n[segment 137] Unknown speaker: decided that if you have a situation like this hanging in the balance\n[segment 138] Unknown speaker: , we decided that we didn't want to\n[segment 139] Unknown speaker: sacrifice the project.\n[segment 140] Unknown speaker: We also probably don't want\n[segment 141] Unknown speaker: to appear as an institution that is afraid of\n[segment 142] Unknown speaker: public condemnation, that sweeps problems\n[segment 143] Unknown speaker: under the carpet. That is, when the curators\n[segment 144] Unknown speaker: invited the interior space, uh, one\n[segment 145] Unknown speaker: of the founders of the interior space,\n[segment 146] Unknown speaker: Denis, is a military man. And\n[segment 147] Unknown speaker: the condition of his participation in this exhibition was that\n[segment 148] Unknown speaker: at every mention of the interior space, the\n[segment 149] Unknown speaker: curators must voice and\n[segment 150] Unknown speaker: publish a statement that actually\n[segment 151] Unknown speaker: states his disagreement with being\n[segment 152] Unknown speaker: part of this exhibition precisely because of the\n[segment 153] Unknown speaker: reason why one of the curators left.\n[segment 154] Unknown speaker: Denis could have written anything in this statement\n[segment 155] Unknown speaker: , and we could have radically\n[segment 156] Unknown speaker: disagreed with it. He is, but he raised an\n[segment 157] Unknown speaker: issue that we also consider important.\n[segment 158] Unknown speaker: We consider it unspoken, we\n[segment 159] Unknown speaker: consider it systematic\n[segment 160] Unknown speaker: and generally a stalemate for modern\n[segment 161] Unknown speaker: Ukrainian culture. Because instead of\n[segment 162] Unknown speaker: talking about it and making it\n[segment 163] Unknown speaker: visible and looking for some kind of solution, in\n[segment 164] Unknown speaker: most cases the decision is made to\n[segment 165] Unknown speaker: simply keep this situation quiet. We\n[segment 166] Unknown speaker: made a conscious choice to post this\n[segment 167] Unknown speaker: statement. And just to conclude what\n[segment 168] Unknown speaker: I'm saying, this exhibition was actually not\n[segment 169] Unknown speaker: under-examined.\n[segment 170] Unknown speaker: And there were five or\n[segment 171] Unknown speaker: six great critical texts published about this exhibition,\n[segment 172] Unknown speaker: which talked about the problems of independent\n[segment 173] Unknown speaker: culture, including the Ukrainian Cultural Institute\n[segment 174] Unknown speaker: in particular, and all of these\n[segment 175] Unknown speaker: texts mentioned Denis's statement and\n[segment 176] Unknown speaker: mentioned this disagreement and mentioned this\n[segment 177] Unknown speaker: gap. But in fact, the great public\n[segment 178] Unknown speaker: outcry and what we call the\n[segment 179] Unknown speaker: Facebook backlash arose precisely because of the way, the very\n[segment 180] Unknown speaker: specific way, in which the author of\n[segment 181] Unknown speaker: the text formulated the problem.\n[segment 182] Unknown speaker: This is a column on a public forum\n[segment 183] Unknown speaker: by the author under the name Joshpszyk for\n[segment 184] Unknown speaker: context. I'm going to interrupt you a little here, because it\n[segment 185] Unknown speaker: seems to me to be an interesting situation that\n[segment 186] Unknown speaker: in your case it would have\n[segment 187] Unknown speaker: worked and attracted a lot of attention,\n[segment 188] Unknown speaker: but in reality it's, well, quite, well, we\n[segment 189] Unknown speaker: know about, we know\n[segment 190] Unknown speaker: about many episodes of different\n[segment 191] Unknown speaker: artists there or cultural figures who\n[segment 192] Unknown speaker: are not in Ukraine. And this\n[segment 193] Unknown speaker: social weight works very differently\n[segment 194] Unknown speaker: , yes, it works for some.\n[segment 195] Unknown speaker: They can do a project in Ukraine and\n[segment 196] Unknown speaker: remain unnoticed by this\n[segment 197] Unknown speaker: moral sediment and even be\n[segment 198] Unknown speaker: recognized and celebrated, relatively\n[segment 199] Unknown speaker: speaking, uh, uh, in the community. And for some,","segments":[{"id":"dde68659-98e2-4774-a268-ca9885e99e5a","segment_index":0,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"Yes, in fact, the law that"},{"id":"4e7c06e9-3226-478c-8847-dcd1eb094f9b","segment_index":1,"speaker_name":null,"start_seconds":null,"end_seconds":null,"text":"these people are breaking does not exist. 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